Aliette de Bodard ([info]aliettedb) wrote,

Minor rant on gendered languages

Another need-to-get-it-off-my-chest-post. Feel free to skip if you dislike rants; it’s only very mildly constructive.

I’ve lost track of how many people have quoted this study to me as being a fun and telling way to characterise gendered languages. For those of you not familiar with it, it’s a study by a Stanford professor which says that people “gender” nouns: that if a table is feminine you will give it feminine characteristics like elegance, beauty; and a masculine bridge will get described as sturdy and strong, which are masculine traits.

OK.

As someone who speaks two gendered languages (one of them as a native), one non-gendered language, and is starting to make inroads into a second non-gendered language… NPR is giving you a false idea of how gender in gendered languages work (I have no idea what the original actual research is; this being the NPR report version, which I suspect distorts the truth). And I’m not denying that language shapes thought, or that genders are completely neutral in gendered languages: for instance, most animal names are male, and I have a devil of a time thinking of a goat as other than female (it’s “la chèvre” in French, which is feminine).

But I do have several issues with that taking that article at face value, and particularly in generalising those results to every single word. The first one is that this concept of “gender characteristics” sounds very much like something that a long-standing Anglophone speaker would come up with: a lot of Anglophones I’ve met have been fascinated by the idea of giving gender to nouns, but in a very odd way. No, I don’t think of a table as female. I think of it as gramatically feminine, which is a different beast. There is a difference–yes, they’re not totally dissociated concepts, but there is one.
Also–I’ve had a chance to interact with US mainstream culture for a while, and it’s struck me that it puts a lot of accent on gender separation and gender proper roles, which is again, fairly compatible with this kind of ideas. We’ve also been discussing this elsewhere with J. Cheney and Chris Kastensmidt, but there’s a whole “anthropomorphising” complex at work in English: Anglophones (or at least USians, I don’t know about UK people) are actually more likely to anthropomorphise their vehicles, computers and cars–giving them names and genders; and referring to them by those names. By contrast, French (and, it looks like, Portuguese) will look at you very oddly if you keep referring to your nice masculine computer. The French language is grammatically gendered, sure; but to all intents and purposes, gender is a dead attribute when it comes to most everyday things.

The other issue I have is with the notion of “gender characteristics”–I’m sorry, but though there are common points between the way cultures view male vs. female, there are also a heck of a lot of differences. People’s perception of “idealised” gender characteristics strongly depends on the culture/language. Very simple example: in France (or in most of the West), a manly man is someone who is strong, and generally good at sports. This is emphatically not the case in traditional Chinese or Vietnamese culture, where a manly man is slender and thin, educated, has beautiful long nails, and can compose beautiful poetry. [1] Puts another spin on the “lone hero”, doesn’t it?

You don’t even have to move that far: where I live in France, it’s usually considered very feminine to be always touching and kissing (on the cheeks) and hugging. Go to Spain and watch a couple of guys from that perspective, and they’ll still seem like a bunch of sissies, because Southern Europe cultures are very tactile.

And another thing… some of the most intensely gender-separated cultures (China and Vietnam, sorry, using what I know, and my repertoire isn’t large, but it will suffice for this) have non-gendered languages, where only the pronouns are gendered. So the gender of people is not the gender of words, and vice-versa.

The study doesn’t mention who they picked as tests subjects, either, but considering that it took place in the US, it’s making me wonder if the German and Italian speakers were pure native speakers with no second language, or if everyone had been immersed in US language and US culture for a while (I strongly suspect the latter). Whatever the case, it certainly looks like the aforementioned speakers got their “perceived genders” classified according to an American perception of gender. So, hum… sceptical, to say the least?

So, please, please, pretty please… do not tell me about the feminine table or the masculine computer? Gendered languages don’t work the way NPR would have you think.


[1]A fun one is that long hair is usually considered a feminine and weak attribute today, at least in my social circles in France; but in Ancient China, wearing hair long wasn’t a particularly big deal–in fact, when the Vietnamese and Chinese first met, the Chinese thought the Vietnamese were Barbarians, because the men dared to cut their hair)</p>

Cross-posted from Aliette de Bodard

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  • 32 comments

[info]history_monk

December 2 2011, 23:04:43 UTC 5 months ago

In my UKnian life, giving machines names and genders seemed a whole lot more popular in the sixties and seventies than it is now. Or maybe it's something that UK children do? Ships have been treated as female in English for a long time, but there's a definite movement to de-gender them now.

Some of the software I work with has very complex behaviour that can seem as if it's displaying personality, but it don't think of it as having gender, even though I anthropomorphise it to some extent.

[info]aliettedb

December 4 2011, 19:50:28 UTC 5 months ago

He, thanks for chiming in!
The ships as female was something that we brought up in that conversation (I confess it's always been slightly puzzling to me, because ships are masculine-gendered in France, but not really otherwise anthropomorphised. Ships can have any names from "Why Not?" to "The [Masculine] Vigilant" or 'The [feminine] Capricious"). But we were discussing cars as well, and yeah, it's behaviour that I haven't seen in the UK, but apparently common in at least some subcultures of the US.

[info]history_monk

December 4 2011, 21:43:15 UTC 5 months ago

Ships always being female seems to be an ancient tradition in English-speaking countries, and the explanations all seem to be attempts to rationalise this, rather than historical. Ship names can be masculine, but the ships still get feminine pronouns.

[info]aliettedb

5 months ago

[info]history_monk

5 months ago

[info]khajidu

5 months ago

[info]aliettedb

5 months ago

[info]khajidu

5 months ago

[info]sueo2

December 3 2011, 00:00:27 UTC 5 months ago

My mother's car was female. Named Bessie. I can tell you why. My mother grew up on a farm and Bessie was the name they gave the cows. (Old Bessie out there in the field.) The name just slipped over to the car. It could just as easily been a boy car, for Old Homer, the horse.

[info]aliettedb

December 4 2011, 19:51:45 UTC 5 months ago

lol. That's odd.
(but see, it's something that doesn't happen in France, at least not in my immediate circles. A friend of mine was saying some people in the South do it, but I've never seen it. We don't name cars--though we do name cows...).

[info]beth_bernobich

December 3 2011, 00:01:53 UTC 5 months ago

Oh, yes, and yes, and yes to all of this.

In German, the word for 'girl' is Maedchen, and is neuter. The suffix 'chen' indicates a diminutive, and always makes the noun neuter. (The base word is 'Magd,' meaning 'maid' or 'unmarried young woman.' It's never used these days.)






[info]aliettedb

December 4 2011, 19:52:19 UTC 5 months ago

He, glad I'm not the only one. That's fascinating about German.

[info]stevendj

December 3 2011, 01:43:05 UTC 5 months ago

Chapter 8 of Guy Deutscher's Through the Language Glass discusses this and other similar experiments. It seems clear that there is some effect, but it's of course frustratingly difficult to figure out exactly how strong the effect is or even exactly how the associations come into play. (The book as a whole discusses how language influences thought, for example, how a language's words for colors affects perception of color.)

[info]aliettedb

December 4 2011, 19:53:08 UTC 5 months ago

He, I might have to pick it up! I'm not denying there is some effect--I'm pretty sure there is, but I'm also pretty dubious that it's as clear-cut as the article makes it appear.

[info]rimrunner

December 3 2011, 02:57:59 UTC 5 months ago

You might like one of George Lakoff's early books, Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things: What Categories Reveal about the Mind which talks about (among other things) this very thing. He considers gendered language along with a whole host of other ways of categorizing words and concepts; the title refers to one such category in a non-Western culture (I forget which one) and is chosen with the ironic understanding of how English-speaking Americans will react to those three terms being associated.

I read the NPR article and thought it was overgeneralizing and simplistic. Which is too bad, because the idea that people think differently in different languages really interests me. While I've lost some fluency, I speak French well enough that I think in it, and it feels (totally subjectively) like I'm thinking differently when I do. It would be interesting to know whether there's a basis for my impression.

Boroditsky's papers are listed here. I don't see any that look like the one being discussed in the NPR piece. Maybe it hasn't been published yet.

[info]aliettedb

December 4 2011, 19:56:32 UTC 5 months ago

Huh, that sounds interesting. It does sound like it at least takes non-Americans into account (I was reading up on the Saphir-Whorf hypothesis, and it was scary to see all the people quoted were American researchers. The H was telling me linguistics and sociology were extremely non-international fields of science, and I don't know if it's true).
I certainly switch to a different mode when I'm speaking English or speaking French, though I'd be hard pressed to know if my behaviour changes because of the language or because I'm using it in different circumstances...

I think the paper mentioned is in a popular science book, but I'm not sure.

[info]kateelliott

December 3 2011, 05:25:12 UTC 5 months ago

Once our empire has subsumed the rest of the world, none of this will matter because it will all be as we say.




More seriously: great post.

[info]triciasullivan

December 3 2011, 07:47:29 UTC 5 months ago

This!!!

[info]aliettedb

December 4 2011, 19:56:49 UTC 5 months ago

loool.
Fair point.

[info]damonshaw

December 3 2011, 09:07:19 UTC 5 months ago

I live an almost completely Spanish (Castellano to be precise) life these days. When I was learning the language, I asked about this issue and was told very clearly that, no, the gender of a noun has no bearing on its traits, characteristics, or emotional feel. I remember being doubtful at the time, but have accepted it now. (One thing that tickled me is the words for the genitals (sorry) are the opposite from the gender of the bearer!)

A slightly connected issue (but very distinct, really,) is how language can be inherently sexist. The word for husband is marido. The word for wife is woman. Meet Henar and her husband. Meet Juan and his... woman.

[info]aliettedb

December 4 2011, 19:58:32 UTC 5 months ago

:-)
Yeah, the genitals thing in Spanish is fun. Lots of embarrasing moments while we were leaning it...

Oh, I'm pretty sure language can be darn sexist (or all kinds of things, really). Vietnamese distinguishes between elder sister and elder brother, but not between younger sister or younger brother. Which is telling you all you need to know about precedence between different ages...

[info]xanthalanari

December 3 2011, 12:47:25 UTC 5 months ago

I know plenty of people who gender and name their cars, but there doesn't seem to be any pattern to male or female. Other than that, I can't think of anything else people gender.

[info]aliettedb

December 4 2011, 19:59:22 UTC 5 months ago

It's cars I was mostly thinking of, but I've started seeing it with computers as well.
(and I don't think there's any pattern either, though it would be interesting to see what characteristics people associate with their cars...)

[info]idiosyncreant

December 4 2011, 00:26:20 UTC 5 months ago

This is very interesting!

I had assumed there would be a transparency to it for the native speakers, but I didn't know what effect it had on literature, say.

My second language is Japanese (though I'm only passably fluent) and a similar issue lies with the "levels" of diction, the social structure involved in the different grammar forms. People ask if that was hard, and assume Japanese people are super-polite.

The Japanese are probably no more polite than most Confucian-influenced cultures, and in real life, you use formal-ish grammar with everyone until you become close, unless they are a boss or a teacher. It's normal.

[info]aliettedb

December 4 2011, 20:00:46 UTC 5 months ago

It's almost completely transparent, except when gender actually has a bearing on the noun (like animals or jobs).
And yeah, not surprised about the Japanese. Of course they'd be totally normal, politeness-wise...

[info]swan_tower

December 4 2011, 03:43:50 UTC 5 months ago

Tried to post this before, but it didn't work. Trying again:

The Latin word for "manliness" is virtus.

Which is a feminine noun.

I usually figure the discussion should end there.

[info]aliettedb

December 4 2011, 20:01:29 UTC 5 months ago

loool
I should remember this (especially since there's a French equivalent: "manliness" is "virilité", which is also feminine...)

[info]la_marquise_de_

December 4 2011, 18:24:38 UTC 5 months ago

Excellent post. Thank you. Despite my first language being non-gendered for common nouns, I've always been very comfortable with the way gendered languages work and found it more sensible, in fact (this may be because I started learning French very young). That insistence on a clean, clear binary drives me nuts, because it feels so forced.

[info]aliettedb

December 4 2011, 20:02:44 UTC 5 months ago

He, glad it makes sense to you. The clear, clean binary also drives me insane. Why insist on it, outside of some very special cases?

[info]la_marquise_de_

December 4 2011, 20:19:48 UTC 5 months ago

I wish I knew! It seems so.... narrow.
Mind you, I have my own language blind spots. I've never been comfortable addressing older Chinese friends as 'Lao X', for instance, because while I know in my head that it's perfectly acceptable, affectionate, even, it sounds so very rude to my British inner instincts. I need to work on that.

[info]aliettedb

5 months ago

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